{"id":161853,"date":"2026-05-11T11:00:18","date_gmt":"2026-05-11T16:00:18","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.dacgroup.com\/?post_type=podcasts&#038;p=161853"},"modified":"2026-05-11T11:25:09","modified_gmt":"2026-05-11T16:25:09","slug":"what-sej-is-hearing-from-search-marketers-right-now","status":"publish","type":"podcasts","link":"https:\/\/www.dacgroup.com\/en-gb\/insights\/podcasts\/what-sej-is-hearing-from-search-marketers-right-now\/","title":{"rendered":"What SEJ Is Hearing from Search Marketers Right Now"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"featured_media":161857,"menu_order":0,"template":"","meta":{"content-type":""},"podcasts-service-type":[],"podcast-category":[],"class_list":["post-161853","podcasts","type-podcasts","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry"],"acf":{"publish_date":"20260511","expert_source":"contributing_experts","author":87610,"duration":"19 minutes","title":"What SEJ Is Hearing from Search Marketers Right Now","hero":{"type":"video","hero_image":null,"hero_video":"https:\/\/youtu.be\/eHUV1bNUIEM?si=DQEYSY2JJ5H9au-O"},"podcast_iframe":"<iframe style=\"border:0; width:100%;\" height=\"200px\" width=\"100%\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\" seamless src=\"https:\/\/player.cohostpodcasting.com\/d20e04dd-0024-49c3-a29e-cb8cf18252f2\/b5cfc0ba-ec31-4828-bdd9-6b14ea354fac\"><\/iframe>","promotional_listen_text":"Listen now on your favorite platform","content":"<span data-contrast=\"auto\">If search used to be about ranking on Google, what is it really shaping today?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n&nbsp;\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">In this episode of\u00a0<\/span><i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Shift Happens<\/span><\/i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, host Nasser Sahlool is joined by Matt Southern, Senior News Writer at\u00a0<\/span><i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Search Engine Journal<\/span><\/i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, to explore how search is evolving beyond rankings, clicks, and traditional SEO metrics.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n&nbsp;\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">They unpack the shift from Google-only visibility to a broader decision ecosystem spanning AI search, zero-click results, Amazon, TikTok, Reddit, YouTube, maps,\u00a0reviews\u00a0and marketplaces. Matt shares what search marketers are asking right now,\u00a0what\u2019s\u00a0being overhyped, and what brands are underestimating as AI systems increasingly shape how people discover, compare,\u00a0validate\u00a0and choose.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n&nbsp;\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">The episode also explores why SEO fundamentals still matter, how consistent brand information influences AI-generated answers, and why marketers need to measure success beyond organic traffic alone.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n&nbsp;\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">The takeaway? Search doesn\u2019t just drive clicks anymore: it shapes trust, influence and decisions across the full customer journey.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>","tips":{"tips_title":"Key takeaways","tips":[{"tip_image":155038,"tip_title":"Search is no longer just a Google rankings game ","tip_content":"Marketers need to think beyond blue links and organic sessions. As Matt explains in this <a href=\" https:\/\/www.searchenginejournal.com\/seo\/meet-search-engines\/\">Search Engine Journal article<\/a>, search now happens across AI tools, marketplaces, social platforms, maps, reviews, and communities\u2014where people discover, compare, and validate brands before they ever click. \r\n\r\n"},{"tip_image":155038,"tip_title":"AI search is changing influence before the click ","tip_content":"Brands can shape decisions without always seeing the traffic. AI-generated answers, summaries and recommendations are pulling from structured data, reviews, Reddit discussions, YouTube content and other third-party signals, making consistency and credibility across the web more important than ever. \r\n"},{"tip_image":155038,"tip_title":"Measurement needs to catch up to the new search journey ","tip_content":"Rankings and traffic still matter, but they no longer tell the full story. Marketers need to understand AI visibility, branded search demand, local actions, review sentiment, and share of search. DAC and Search Engine Journal will explore this in more detail in the upcoming webinar, <a href=\" https:\/\/www.searchenginejournal.com\/webinar-lp-fix-for-kpi-blind-spots-how-to-finally-tie-ai-search-to-performance\/\">Fix for KPI Blind Spots: How to Finally Tie AI Search to Performance <\/a>. \r\n"}]},"transcript":"<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Welcome to\u00a0Shift Happens,\u00a0I'm\u00a0Nasser\u00a0Sahlool\u00a0with\u00a0DAC.\u00a0\u00a0Today\u00a0on\u00a0Shift Happens,\u00a0I'm\u00a0joined by Matt Southern,\u00a0senior\u00a0news writer at Search Engine Journal.\u00a0Matt has spent years covering\u00a0SEO, AI, search platform\u00a0changes\u00a0and the questions marketers are asking\u00a0as search continues to evolve.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt is\u00a0actually\u00a0one\u00a0of my favorite writers\u00a0on this subject, and one that\u00a0I've\u00a0read\u00a0for many, many years.\u00a0In this episode,\u00a0we're\u00a0talking about\u00a0he\u2019s\u00a0hearing\u00a0from search marketers right now,\u00a0because the questions are getting bigger\u00a0than Google rankings alone.\u00a0Marketers are trying to understand\u00a0AI search,\u00a0zero click behavior,\u00a0Amazon, TikTok, Reddit, YouTube,\u00a0maps, marketplaces,\u00a0and how\u00a0all of\u00a0these environments\u00a0shape the way people discover, compare,\u00a0validate, and choose brands.\u00a0So today\u00a0we'll\u00a0separate the signal from the noise,\u00a0what's\u00a0overhyped, what's underestimated,\u00a0and what marketers should\u00a0actually\u00a0do\u00a0next. Matt, welcome to Shift Happens.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Thank you for that warm introduction,\u00a0Nasser.\u00a0It's\u00a0a pleasure to be here.\u00a0And thank you so much for being a reader.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Absolutely,\u00a0it's\u00a0what I do with my time.\u00a0So, Matt, one of the reasons\u00a0we wanted to have you on\u00a0is that Search Engine\u00a0Journal has a front row seat\u00a0to what marketers are asking about search\u00a0right now, and the questions\u00a0seem\u00a0bigger than just how do we rank on Google? Marketers are trying to understand\u00a0AI search,\u00a0Google's\u00a0changing results\u00a0page\u00a0or lack of page?\u00a0Amazon, TikTok,\u00a0all of\u00a0these\u00a0different areas,\u00a0all the places\u00a0where people now\u00a0discover, compare and\u00a0validate\u00a0brands.\u00a0So\u00a0from where you sit at Search\u00a0Engine Journal, what are search\u00a0marketers asking right now\u00a0and what should they be asking?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Well, one thing\u00a0I'm\u00a0noticing\u00a0is that the questions\u00a0people are asking are getting a lot\u00a0grimmer over the past year.\u00a0It used to be, how do I rank for this?\u00a0And now\u00a0it's\u00a0more\u00a0like, is SEO even worth it anymore?\u00a0Do new publishers stand a chance, and\u00a0are\u00a0website still needed?\u00a0Those\u00a0are the kinds of questions\u00a0I'm\u00a0getting.\u00a0And I think the honest answer to\u00a0that is it depends on\u00a0what kind of SEO\u00a0you're\u00a0talking about.\u00a0If you mean launching a site\u00a0and filling it with\u00a0content\u00a0you could have gotten anywhere else\u00a0and collecting ad revenue from it,\u00a0yeah, that version is in serious trouble.\u00a0Google is saying that\u00a0pretty openly\u00a0right now.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">At a recent conference,\u00a0they used the expression commodity\u00a0versus non commodity content,\u00a0and the message was\u00a0pretty clear\u00a0about what type of content\u00a0they're\u00a0trying to reward.\u00a0But SEO is a way to get\u00a0good work\u00a0in front of people who are looking for it,\u00a0like a business sharing a case study\u00a0of how they solved\u00a0a\u00a0customer's problem,\u00a0something that can help other people,\u00a0that's\u00a0not dead.\u00a0And in fact,\u00a0you know,\u00a0SEO\u00a0is\u00a0probably more\u00a0important than\u00a0it's\u00a0ever\u00a0been for that type of content. Because one people are hungry for it,\u00a0and two, Google wants to surface it.\u00a0So\u00a0you just\u00a0have to\u00a0give them the right\u00a0signals.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">You know,\u00a0it's\u00a0funny,\u00a0I\u00a0can't\u00a0think of another industry\u00a0or category where people are constantly\u00a0having to say, no,\u00a0this category or industry is not dead.\u00a0And I think\u00a0I've\u00a0been hearing that\u00a0said from,\u00a0I\u00a0don't\u00a0know, going to search\u00a0marketing conferences\u00a0back in the early 2000\u00a0and it just constantly is this thread.\u00a0It's\u00a0like, no, no, no, we still exist.\u00a0We still matter, right?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Oh,\u00a0it's\u00a0been on life support\u00a0my whole career.\u00a0Absolutely.\u00a0Yeah.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">I want whatever\u00a0they're\u00a0drinking if it means that\u00a0it\u00a0leads\u00a0to that kind of longevity.\u00a0So\u00a0wherever the search industry\u00a0changes,\u00a0there's\u00a0always a mix of real signal and hype.\u00a0What do you think is being overhyped\u00a0right now?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">In my opinion, the\u00a0idea that AI\u00a0is going to replace traditional search\u00a0at least any time\u00a0in the near\u00a0future\u00a0is overhyped.\u00a0You know, Google just reported\u00a0search revenue is up 19%,\u00a0queries are at an\u00a0all time\u00a0high.\u00a0Whatever is changing\u00a0and things are changing\u00a0of course,\u00a0it's\u00a0not a replacement story. At\u00a0least not yet, and maybe not ever.\u00a0It might end up\u00a0being more of an expansion.\u00a0So\u00a0more places to search, more\u00a0ways to get answers\u2026<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">But Google is still sitting in the middle\u00a0of all of it and connected to\u00a0that,\u00a0\u00a0I\u00a0also think that the rush to chase\u00a0every new AI search tactic is overrated.\u00a0And a reason for that\u00a0is because the citation patterns\u00a0change\u00a0every time\u00a0there's\u00a0a new model update.\u00a0So\u00a0if\u00a0you're\u00a0building a whole strategy\u00a0around how ChatGPT cite sources\u00a0today, that might not work\u00a0after the next model rolls out.\u00a0So\u00a0the better move is what\u00a0it's\u00a0always\u00a0been, which is to prioritize\u00a0based on your audience,\u00a0your business model, and your category.\u00a0That's\u00a0not the most exciting\u00a0answer to give,\u00a0but\u00a0it's\u00a0a lot more durable than chasing\u00a0whatever the hottest AI\u00a0tactic is right now.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">100% agree.\u00a0So\u00a0on the other side of this,\u00a0what are marketers\u00a0underestimating?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">As far as underestimating,\u00a0I'd\u00a0point to a few things.\u00a0First is how much influence they might\u00a0already have before anyone clicks\u00a0anything.\u00a0You know, a buyer might read\u00a0an AI generated summary\u00a0that was shaped by your business content\u00a0and\u00a0make a decision\u00a0based on\u00a0that,\u00a0 and\u00a0you might never know.\u00a0That's\u00a0happening right now and\u00a0there's\u00a0no analytics for it\u00a0at the moment.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Second,\u00a0I think the basics\u00a0are being overlooked.\u00a0One of the jobs of an SEO\u00a0traditionally, is to help ensure\u00a0a brand is represented\u00a0consistently and accurately everywhere\u00a0it appears on the web with things\u00a0like structured,\u00a0consistent\u00a0and trustworthy brand information. Again, that sounds a little bit boring, but\u00a0it does matter, and\u00a0AI\u00a0systems are pulling\u00a0from every available data source\u00a0to generate answers and recommendations.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0if your brand information\u00a0is inconsistent across sources\u00a0or incomplete or outdated,\u00a0you might be misrepresented by those\u00a0AI models\u00a0that are influencing customer decisions.\u00a0That also\u00a0applies to reviews and Reddit\u00a0discussions, YouTube videos.\u00a0All of that is feeding\u00a0the AI systems that answer questions\u00a0about your business category.\u00a0So\u00a0if your business already has real\u00a0conversations happening about it on Reddit,\u00a0and real customers leaving reviews on maps\u00a0and hands on content on YouTube,\u00a0then\u00a0you're\u00a0in a stronger position\u00a0than you might realize\u00a0and you could be underestimating that.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0the danger here\u00a0isn't\u00a0just losing\u00a0traffic,\u00a0it's\u00a0losing influence\u00a0earlier in the journey, especially when we\u00a0consider how important these areas are.\u00a0You know,\u00a0it's\u00a0interesting\u00a0when I contrast this conversation\u00a0with performance marketers and media.\u00a0And there\u00a0it\u00a0seems to be\u00a0a similar conversation\u00a0where people are so used\u00a0to kind of return on ad spend metrics\u00a0and so on, that there's\u00a0sometimes resistance in moving\u00a0beyond the bottom of the funnel media\u00a0into more upper funnel media.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">What\u00a0you're\u00a0basically saying\u00a0is on the organic side,\u00a0it's\u00a0a very similar\u00a0requirement for long term\u00a0health, is\u00a0we need to consider the entire journey\u00a0and\u00a0all of\u00a0the areas\u00a0that influence beyond the website itself.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Yeah, absolutely.\u00a0There's\u00a0so much that happens between someone searching and\u00a0making a decision\u00a0that if\u00a0you're\u00a0not showing up at every touchpoint, that is a real danger.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Absolutely.\u00a0So\u00a0let's\u00a0talk about Google itself.\u00a0We\u00a0don't\u00a0want to suggest\u00a0the\u00a0marketers\u00a0should move away from Google.\u00a0As you said, their\u00a0search revenue has gone up\u00a0even with their latest earnings,\u00a0especially in the US and Canada.\u00a0But the way that Google works\u00a0as a marketing environment has changed.\u00a0How should marketers think about it now?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Well, I think they should still see\u00a0Google as foundational.\u00a0It's\u00a0still the center of most search\u00a0strategies, and it should be.\u00a0The experience of using Google\u00a0is changing,\u00a0but the volume is still there.\u00a0So\u00a0walking away from it\u00a0doesn't\u00a0make sense\u00a0from a business standpoint,\u00a0but\u00a0it's\u00a0becoming something different.\u00a0Google used to be a list of links\u00a0that people would click and\u00a0read through\u00a0to\u00a0make a decision, and now Google itself\u00a0is more like a decision interface.\u00a0You can get immediate answers\u00a0from AI overviews.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">There's product comparisons and checkout\u00a0pages right on the search results page.\u00a0So\u00a0Google is increasingly the place\u00a0where the decision gets\u00a0made, not just\u00a0where the research starts.\u00a0And that changes what it means to show up\u00a0there.\u00a0You can be visible on Google and still not\u00a0get the click because the person got\u00a0what they needed without ever\u00a0leaving the search result page.\u00a0A useful way to think about\u00a0it, in my opinion, is\u00a0can Google\u00a0answer this in two sentences?\u00a0So\u00a0if\u00a0someone's\u00a0looking for store hours\u00a0or return policies,\u00a0or what size\u00a0does\u00a0something comes\u00a0in,\u00a0that's\u00a0a\u00a0two-sentence\u00a0answer and Google's got that handled.\u00a0It's\u00a0normal to lose traffic\u00a0from those types of pages.\u00a0But if what\u00a0you're\u00a0offering goes\u00a0deeper than that, like original data or\u00a0a first-hand account\u00a0or even a custom tool that they can\u00a0download,\u00a0that's\u00a0the content Google\u00a0can't\u00a0replace.\u00a0And that's\u00a0where clicks are still happening.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0that's\u00a0really interesting\u00a0because, you know, telling people that\u00a0it's\u00a0not just about rankings and organic\u00a0sessions and visits to your website.\u00a0I mean,\u00a0that's\u00a0search Kryptonite right there.\u00a0The way that a lot of people have measured\u00a0this historically over the years.\u00a0But\u00a0you're\u00a0saying\u00a0that success is more than that now?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Oh, well, rankings and traffic\u00a0still matter, of course, but\u00a0they're\u00a0incomplete.\u00a0And if\u00a0that's\u00a0all\u00a0you're\u00a0tracking,\u00a0you're\u00a0only seeing a part of the picture.\u00a0There's\u00a0a growing list of things\u00a0that matter\u00a0that\u00a0don't\u00a0show up in a traditional\u00a0SEO report\u00a0like, are you appearing in AI overviews?\u00a0Are you getting cited in\u00a0AI chatbot answers?\u00a0What does your local presence look like?\u00a0Is Google's new\u00a0\u201cask\u00a0maps\u201d\u00a0feature recommending you? Success on Google means showing up\u00a0credibly in the moments\u00a0that shape customer decisions,\u00a0and that could be an AI overview.\u00a0It could be a Reddit thread.\u00a0It could be a YouTube video\u00a0someone watches before they buy something.\u00a0You\u00a0can't\u00a0always measure that impact\u00a0directly, but if\u00a0you're\u00a0only looking at\u00a0rankings and\u00a0sessions\u00a0you're\u00a0missing parts of the picture\u00a0that are becoming a lot more important.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0let's\u00a0move beyond\u00a0Google,\u00a0and\u00a0talk about a little brother\u00a0that's\u00a0been around for a long time.\u00a0Our friend Bing.\u00a0And\u00a0I'm\u00a0going to lead into this\u00a0with a little bit of an anecdote.\u00a0I remember a few years ago, I was\u00a0sitting there on the\u00a0couch\u00a0and I was with my now wife, then\u00a0girlfriend.\u00a0\u00a0So\u00a0this is\u00a0I'm\u00a0really kind of dating this.\u00a0And she was watching Gossip Girl.\u00a0It\u00a0wasn't\u00a0me.\u00a0I want you to understand that\u00a0I\u00a0wasn't\u00a0watching Gossip Girl,\u00a0but my then girlfriend was\u00a0and one of the characters\u00a0asked someone a question and the other one\u00a0said, oh\u00a0yeah, you can just\u00a0Bing\u00a0that.\u00a0And I was like, wait a second, I\u00a0don't\u00a0think\u00a0I've\u00a0ever heard\u00a0that. Is\u00a0that\u00a0something\u00a0that's\u00a0broken into the zeitgeist?\u00a0\u00a0And then I realized\u00a0that it was just a sponsored placement.\u00a0But is there still a role\u00a0for Bing in this conversation?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Well, I\u00a0don't\u00a0know\u00a0Nasser, let me\u00a0Bing\u00a0that for you.\u00a0But\u00a0yeah.\u00a0There's\u00a0definitely a\u00a0role for\u00a0Bing\u00a0and more than most people think.\u00a0Bing quietly climbed\u00a0past 10% market share in the US,\u00a0and it recently hit a billion monthly\u00a0active users.\u00a0And in certain categories,\u00a0that's\u00a0a bigger\u00a0deal than market share numbers\u00a0suggests.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0I'm\u00a0not saying that you need\u00a0a separate strategy for Bing, but\u00a0you should at the absolute minimum, check\u00a0your indexing and Bing\u00a0webmaster tools\u00a0and make sure your site is being crawled.\u00a0That\u2019s\u00a0important because\u00a0ChatGPT\u2019s\u00a0search results\u00a0run on Bing's index for web results.\u00a0So\u00a0when someone asks ChatGPT a question\u00a0and it pulls in web sources,\u00a0it's\u00a0pulling from Bing.\u00a0And if your site\u00a0isn\u2019t\u00a0indexed\u00a0properly,\u00a0you might be invisible in ChatGPT\u2019s\u00a0web results as well.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0what\u00a0you're\u00a0saying is\u00a0Sam\u00a0Altman is a Gossip Girl fan.\u00a0That's\u00a0what I just took away from this.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">100%,\u00a0never misses an episode.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">All right,\u00a0so that takes us into AI search,\u00a0which of course is\u00a0a very,\u00a0very big\u00a0topic right now.\u00a0And a lot of marketers are trying\u00a0to understand ChatGPT,\u00a0Perplexity,\u00a0Claude,\u00a0you know, Google AI overviews\u00a0and\u00a0all of\u00a0these answer-based experiences.\u00a0What\u00a0actually changes\u00a0for brands?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">As we touched on a little\u00a0bit, the biggest change is what happens\u00a0between the search and the decision.\u00a0You know,\u00a0there's\u00a0the whole AI layer in the middle\u00a0now that you need to consider\u00a0that summarizing, comparing things\u00a0and making recommendations to people.\u00a0So\u00a0a brand\u00a0can influence a purchase\u00a0or a choice without ever getting a click.\u00a0And we touched on that, but we\u00a0didn't\u00a0get into what to do about it.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And the answer to\u00a0that\u00a0is not to try to game the system.\u00a0\u00a0There's\u00a0no trick to getting ChatGPT\u00a0to cite you more.\u00a0On top of that, the citation patterns\u00a0change with every model update.\u00a0So\u00a0the tactics used today\u00a0might not work for the models tomorrow.\u00a0The better move is to make\u00a0your brand easier to understand,\u00a0easier to verify, easier\u00a0to trust, and easier for AI to cite.\u00a0And\u00a0that's\u00a0a lot less exciting than, \u201cHere are five ways\u00a0to optimize for ChatGPT today.\u201d\u00a0But\u00a0that's\u00a0the more realistic answer.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0you mentioned\u00a0to\u00a0make sure that your brand\u00a0is easy to understand.\u00a0And\u00a0I think this\u00a0is\u00a0a\u00a0really critical\u00a0point\u00a0because some brands work\u00a0in technical spaces\u00a0or scientific spaces or B2B environments\u00a0where\u00a0there's\u00a0a lot of jargon.\u00a0And from my understanding,\u00a0the AI platforms have a harder time\u00a0in understanding that versus write it\u00a0as if\u00a0you're\u00a0talking at a grade school level,\u00a0and\u00a0they're\u00a0much more likely to understand. Write it for the\u00a0layman\u00a0as opposed to for the scientist.\u00a0Is that a fair statement\u00a0when you say make your content easier\u00a0for the language models to understand?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Yeah,\u00a0that's\u00a0definitely\u00a0a\u00a0part of it.\u00a0But the biggest part of\u00a0it is\u00a0consistency.\u00a0Like, you\u00a0don't\u00a0want your Google Business\u00a0Page\u00a0to say one thing\u00a0and your website services\u00a0page to say another thing.\u00a0It\u00a0has to\u00a0be easy to understand everywhere\u00a0that it crawls\u00a0your business\u00a0and your business shows up.\u00a0It\u00a0has to\u00a0see a consistent answer\u00a0and that makes it easier to understand.\u00a0But even\u00a0then\u00a0it can still get things wrong sometimes.\u00a0So\u00a0the trick is, you know,\u00a0give it as many signals as possible.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Definitely.\u00a0So\u00a0when we talk about signals,\u00a0let's\u00a0move a little beyond that.\u00a0One of the points in the article\u00a0that you put up on this subject recently,\u00a0which\u00a0we're\u00a0going to have a link\u00a0in the description to reference,\u00a0is that a lot of search behavior never\u00a0touches the traditional search engine.\u00a0So\u00a0let's\u00a0talk about that.\u00a0Where do platforms like Amazon, TikTok,\u00a0YouTube, Reddit,\u00a0Maps fit into a modern search strategy?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Okay. Well,\u00a0that's\u00a0a great question.\u00a0That all depends on what your audience\u00a0is trying to do when they search.\u00a0So\u00a0if\u00a0they're\u00a0looking to buy products\u00a0and they already know what they want,\u00a0a lot of those searches\u00a0never touch Google.\u00a0They just go straight to Amazon.\u00a0So\u00a0Amazon is a search engine for reaching\u00a0an audience with a clear purchase intent.\u00a0But if\u00a0they're\u00a0looking\u00a0to learn about a product,\u00a0maybe they\u00a0don't\u00a0know what they want\u00a0to buy yet and they want to view a\u00a0demo,\u00a0or\u00a0see a tutorial or a customer review\u00a0from someone\u00a0who's\u00a0used it.\u00a0That's\u00a0where TikTok and YouTube\u00a0comes\u00a0in.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">If\u00a0they're\u00a0looking for feedback\u00a0from other customers,\u00a0that's\u00a0when you want your brand to show up\u00a0in Reddit and\u00a0third party\u00a0reviews.\u00a0And\u00a0Reddit\u2019s\u00a0interesting right now\u00a0because\u00a0it's\u00a0pulling double duty.\u00a0It's\u00a0a place where people talk about\u00a0products and brands,\u00a0and\u00a0it's\u00a0also one of the most heavily\u00a0crawled sources\u00a0for AI generated answers.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And\u00a0what is the role of maps\u00a0and local in that?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Oh, if the\u00a0intent\u2019s\u00a0local,\u00a0if\u00a0they're\u00a0searching\u00a0for a local establishment or something\u00a0they can buy today\u00a0that's maps. And maps\u00a0is\u00a0AI powered now as well.\u00a0Google's launched Ask Maps,\u00a0which makes recommendations.\u00a0It\u00a0actually will\u00a0recommend\u00a0specific businesses based on what you ask,\u00a0instead of\u00a0just giving you a list of location pins.\u00a0So\u00a0the quality of your Google\u00a0business profile\u00a0and your reviews matter more than\u00a0ever,\u00a0because\u00a0AI is actively choosing\u00a0which businesses to recommend.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0marketers\u00a0shouldn't\u00a0ask,\u00a0should we be on every platform?\u00a0They should ask,\u00a0where does our audience build confidence?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Oh, exactly\u00a0yeah,\u00a0that's\u00a0a great way\u00a0to put it.\u00a0And\u00a0it's\u00a0going to be different\u00a0for every category. A\u00a0retailer, a restaurant chain,\u00a0a health care provider, for example, or,\u00a0you know, an\u00a0accounting firm,\u00a0they all have different search ecosystems.\u00a0And the customer journey touches\u00a0different platforms at\u00a0different stages\u00a0of that journey. And the job is to\u00a0map that out\u00a0for your specific business.\u00a0And where do your customers discover you?\u00a0Where do they compare you to alternatives?\u00a0Where do they go for validation\u00a0before they make a commitment?\u00a0And where does that conversation\u00a0actually happen?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Each of those touch points might happen\u00a0somewhere different, and the places that\u00a0matter most for your specific category\u00a0are the ones worth investing in.\u00a0You\u00a0don't\u00a0need to be on all of them.\u00a0Don't\u00a0spread yourself too thin.\u00a0Just the ones that\u00a0actually shape\u00a0decisions for your audience.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Okay,\u00a0so speaking of the audience,\u00a0if\u00a0you're\u00a0a marketer listening to this and\u00a0thinking, okay, search is bigger,\u00a0noisier\u00a0and harder to measure than it used to be,\u00a0what should you\u00a0actually do\u00a0next?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">The quickest win is to make sure\u00a0you have a solid foundation in place.\u00a0And the reason this matters more\u00a0now is that AI systems rely\u00a0on the same signals to decide whether\u00a0to include you and represent you.\u00a0So\u00a0the fundamentals\u00a0aren't\u00a0just about Google\u00a0rankings anymore.\u00a0The\u00a0next thing is audit\u00a0where your brand shows up.\u00a0Audit your brand's full search footprint.\u00a0That includes AI tools, Amazon, Reddit,\u00a0Maps,\u00a0YouTube, everything we talked about.\u00a0If you only know your Google rankings,\u00a0but you\u00a0don't\u00a0know\u00a0where your brand shows up or on\u00a0ChatGPT\u00a0or\u00a0what's\u00a0being said about it on Reddit,\u00a0that's\u00a0a knowledge gap you\u00a0have to\u00a0fill.\u00a0Next map where the decisions happen,\u00a0figure out where your audience\u00a0discovers, compares, and shops, and\u00a0that can vary by category.\u00a0\u00a0After\u00a0you've\u00a0identified\u00a0your top platforms, make your brand easier\u00a0to understand across them\u00a0with clear content\u00a0and consistent entity information,\u00a0complete product data,\u00a0location data\u00a0reviews\u00a0and\u00a0third-party\u00a0signals.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And lastly, update\u00a0how you measure your success.\u00a0Because relying solely on last click\u00a0organic\u00a0traffic gives you an incomplete picture\u00a0as we discussed. Traffic still\u00a0matters,\u00a0it's\u00a0not the only indicator though.\u00a0Another good indicator\u00a0is whether more people are searching\u00a0for your brand directly.\u00a0Local search actions\u00a0is\u00a0another indicator,\u00a0tracking\u00a0customer reviews and overall sentiment.\u00a0And you can\u00a0monitor\u00a0AI visibility\u00a0using Bing's\u00a0AI performance dashboard, which shows\u00a0how often\u00a0you're\u00a0getting cited,\u00a0which pages are getting a surface\u00a0for which\u00a0queries, and Google\u00a0doesn't\u00a0have anything like that so far.\u00a0And another thing to consider is review\u00a0sentiment and share of search signals\u00a0as an indicator of brand\u00a0health, beyond organic clicks.\u00a0And just to make this clear,\u00a0I'm\u00a0not saying to replace traffic as a\u00a0KPI,\u00a0but\u00a0it's\u00a0time to start\u00a0adding some new metrics.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Love it.\u00a0So\u00a0here's\u00a0the shift.\u00a0Search is no longer\u00a0just about ranking\u00a0on Google or earning a click to a website.\u00a0Google still matters.\u00a0SEO still matters,\u00a0but the search journey is expanding across\u00a0AI tools, marketplaces,\u00a0social platforms, maps, reviews,\u00a0communities, and recommendation systems.\u00a0So\u00a0for marketers, that means\u00a0the goal is bigger than visibility.\u00a0The goal is to be understood,\u00a0trusted and chosen\u00a0whenever decisions are being shaped.\u00a0Which,\u00a0I mean, isn't that the goal for all of us?\u00a0The brands that win will be\u00a0the ones that know which signals matter,\u00a0which trends are noise,\u00a0and how to build a search presence\u00a0that works across the full decision\u00a0ecosystem.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Now make it happen.\u00a0Follow\u00a0Shift\u00a0Happens, leave us a review\u00a0and share this episode with your team.\u00a0If you have any questions for the podcast,\u00a0please email us at\u00a0<\/span><a href=\"mailto:shifthappens@dacgroup.com\"><span data-contrast=\"none\">shifthappens@dacgroup.com<\/span><\/a><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,\u00a0we'd\u00a0love to hear from you.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So one thing\u00a0that I do want to mention\u00a0there is the upcoming webinar\u00a0with\u00a0DAC\u00a0with Search\u00a0Engine Journal on May 28th at 2pm Eastern, which is about fixing\u00a0your KPI blind spots, how to finally tie\u00a0AI search to performance,\u00a0which speaks directly\u00a0to a lot of the things\u00a0that Matt has been talking to us about.\u00a0There's\u00a0a link in the description below.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt,\u00a0thank you very much for joining us today.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Matt:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Thank you so much for having me.\u00a0We'll\u00a0see you on the\u00a0webinar.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Thank you very much.\u00a0I'm\u00a0Nasser\u00a0Sahlool.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>","contributing_experts":null,"external_links":{"youtube_link":"https:\/\/youtu.be\/eHUV1bNUIEM?si=DQEYSY2JJ5H9au-O 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