{"id":162342,"date":"2026-06-08T10:06:01","date_gmt":"2026-06-08T15:06:01","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.dacgroup.com\/?post_type=podcasts&#038;p=162342"},"modified":"2026-06-08T10:06:02","modified_gmt":"2026-06-08T15:06:02","slug":"tv-didnt-die-convergent-tv-marketing-growth","status":"publish","type":"podcasts","link":"https:\/\/www.dacgroup.com\/en-ca\/insights\/podcasts\/tv-didnt-die-convergent-tv-marketing-growth\/","title":{"rendered":"TV Is Alive, Thriving, and Finally Measurable"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"featured_media":162336,"menu_order":0,"template":"","meta":{"content-type":""},"podcasts-service-type":[],"podcast-category":[],"class_list":["post-162342","podcasts","type-podcasts","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry"],"acf":{"publish_date":"20260608","expert_source":"contributing_experts","author":87609,"duration":"19 minutes","title":"TV Is Alive, Thriving, and Finally Measurable","hero":{"type":"video","hero_image":null,"hero_video":"https:\/\/youtu.be\/O18p60J8sBw?si=fxcglx7IkB4daMBU"},"podcast_iframe":"<iframe style=\"border:0; width:100%;\" height=\"200px\" width=\"100%\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\" seamless src=\"https:\/\/player.cohostpodcasting.com\/80e7e76d-2929-432e-b95b-eebb612b64cc\/8de65191-c1b8-468e-90df-641112c2df26\"><\/iframe> ","promotional_listen_text":"Listen now on your favorite platform","content":"<p aria-level=\"2\"><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">TV\u00a0didn\u2019t\u00a0die. It\u00a0changed\u00a0the script.<\/span><\/b> <span data-contrast=\"auto\">How\u00a0should\u00a0marketers\u00a0rethink\u00a0TV\u00a0when\u00a0audiences are\u00a0moving\u00a0across\u00a0more screens, platforms, and\u00a0viewing\u00a0environments\u00a0than\u00a0ever\u00a0before?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;335551550&quot;:0,&quot;335551620&quot;:0}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\r\n&nbsp;\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">In\u00a0this\u00a0episode\u00a0of\u00a0<\/span><i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Shift\u00a0Happens<\/span><\/i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, host Nasser Sahlool\u00a0is\u00a0joined\u00a0by Mike Fogarty, Head of Client\u00a0Development, Brand and Agency Partnerships at Tatari, to explore the\u00a0rise\u00a0of convergent TV and\u00a0what\u00a0it\u00a0means\u00a0for modern\u00a0marketers.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;335551550&quot;:0,&quot;335551620&quot;:0}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n&nbsp;\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">They\u00a0unpack\u00a0why\u00a0the \u201cTV\u00a0is\u00a0dead\u201d narrative\u00a0missed\u00a0the\u00a0bigger\u00a0shift: TV has not\u00a0disappeared,\u00a0it\u00a0has\u00a0become\u00a0more\u00a0fragmented, flexible, data-driven, and\u00a0measurable. From\u00a0linear\u00a0TV and streaming to CTV, digital\u00a0video, FAST channels, AVOD platforms, and on-demand\u00a0environments,\u00a0today\u2019s\u00a0TV\u00a0ecosystem\u00a0is\u00a0no longer about\u00a0choosing\u00a0one\u00a0channel\u00a0over\u00a0another. It\u00a0is\u00a0about\u00a0understanding\u00a0how\u00a0every\u00a0part of the screen\u00a0experience\u00a0works\u00a0together.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;335551550&quot;:0,&quot;335551620&quot;:0}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n&nbsp;\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mike\u00a0explains\u00a0why\u00a0marketers\u00a0need\u00a0to stop\u00a0thinking\u00a0in\u00a0separate\u00a0buckets\u00a0like\u00a0linear\u00a0versus streaming and start planning\u00a0around\u00a0the full TV\u00a0ecosystem. The\u00a0core\u00a0message: TV\u00a0remains\u00a0one of the\u00a0most\u00a0powerful\u00a0channels for\u00a0both\u00a0brand and performance, but the brands\u00a0that\u00a0win\u00a0will\u00a0be\u00a0the\u00a0ones\u00a0that\u00a0plan\u00a0holistically,\u00a0measure\u00a0smarter, and\u00a0connect\u00a0TV\u00a0investment\u00a0more\u00a0directly\u00a0to business\u00a0outcomes.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;335551550&quot;:0,&quot;335551620&quot;:0}\">\u00a0<\/span>","tips":{"tips_title":"Key takeaways","tips":[{"tip_image":155037,"tip_title":"TV is not dying. It is rapidly changing. ","tip_content":"For years, marketers were told that TV was in decline. But the real story is not that TV disappeared; it evolved. Audiences are still watching TV content, but they are doing it across linear, streaming, connected TV, digital video, and on-demand environments. For marketers, the challenge is not whether TV still matters. It is understanding how to navigate a more complex and fragmented ecosystem. "},{"tip_image":155037,"tip_title":"Convergent TV is about orchestration, not channel labels. ","tip_content":"Marketers often separate TV into buckets like linear, CTV, streaming, or digital video. But from the audience\u2019s perspective, it is all part of the same viewing experience. Convergent TV is about orchestrating those environments together to reach the right household or user in the right moment, whether that is on the living room screen, a mobile device, or another connected platform. "},{"tip_image":155037,"tip_title":"Fragmented viewing habits require a more holistic planning approach. ","tip_content":"Audiences now have more choice than ever, and that makes attention harder to win. People move between live TV, streaming apps, sports, on-demand content, and secondary screens. That means marketers can no longer rely on a single point of entry. To capture attention, brands need to think across the full ecosystem and plan for how different TV environments work together. "},{"tip_image":155037,"tip_title":"Marketers should avoid overcorrecting to streaming-only strategies. ","tip_content":"The shift toward streaming created new opportunities, but it also led some marketers to focus too narrowly on programmatic buying or DSP-based access. Mike explains that much of the TV ecosystem is still bought directly, including traditional and streaming inventory. Brands that only buy through one side of the market may miss significant opportunities to reach audiences more effectively. "},{"tip_image":155037,"tip_title":"TV measurement has moved beyond awareness metrics. ","tip_content":"TV is no longer limited to broad reach, frequency, or GRP-based measurement. Today, marketers can use more outcome-driven approaches, including incrementality, geo-match market testing, footfall measurement, digital lift, and third-party measurement models. That evolution is helping brands understand TV not only as a brand-building channel, but as a measurable growth driver across the full funnel. "}]},"transcript":"<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Welcome to\u00a0Shift\u00a0Happens,\u00a0I'm\u00a0Nasser\u00a0Sahlool.\u00a0Today\u00a0I'm\u00a0joined by Mike Fogarty,\u00a0head of client\u00a0development,\u00a0brand\u00a0and agency partnerships at\u00a0Tatari.\u00a0For years, marketers were told\u00a0that TV was dying.\u00a0Apparently, TV\u00a0didn't\u00a0get the memo.\u00a0In fact,\u00a0TV's\u00a0very much alive.\u00a0It's\u00a0thriving,\u00a0evolving, becoming more flexible,\u00a0data-driven\u00a0and measurable than ever.\u00a0Of course, audiences are no longer\u00a0just sitting on the couch\u00a0watching one screen at a time.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">They're\u00a0moving across linear TV, streaming\u00a0platforms, connected TV, digital video,\u00a0and on demand environments,\u00a0sometimes all before deciding\u00a0what to watch.\u00a0For marketers,\u00a0that means the opportunity is no longer\u00a0about choosing one channel over another.\u00a0It's\u00a0about understanding\u00a0how the full TV ecosystem works together.\u00a0In this episode,\u00a0we're\u00a0talking about\u00a0the rise of\u00a0convergent\u00a0TV.\u00a0What\u00a0marketers got wrong about\u00a0the\u00a0\u201cTV is dead\u201d\u00a0narrative\u00a0and how brands can rethink TV\u00a0as a measurable growth channel.\u00a0Mike, welcome to Shift Happens.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mike:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Thank you\u00a0Nasser,\u00a0I'm\u00a0excited to be here.\u00a0And as you said,\u00a0the macro shifts are very\u00a0rapid\u00a0and things are getting a bit more complex.\u00a0So\u00a0looking forward\u00a0to breaking it down with you today.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Complexity is our friend.\u00a0First of all, I want\u00a0to talk a little bit about this\u00a0whole, you know, working in a space\u00a0where people say that a thing is dying\u00a0and your entire kind of category is dying,\u00a0and then it\u00a0isn't.\u00a0It's\u00a0alive,\u00a0it's\u00a0thriving,\u00a0it's\u00a0becoming more measurable.\u00a0What do you think about what marketers\u00a0got wrong about the whole TV's\u00a0dying narrative?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mike:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Yeah, I think in a way\u00a0this topic was a bit disingenuous.\u00a0I think we've been saying\u00a0that television is decaying or dying\u00a0for the last ten years,\u00a0but I think, as you alluded\u00a0to, it's been a thriving channel\u00a0for the last 80 years from\u00a0both a primary brand builder, but also now\u00a0moving more into a fungible performance\u00a0channel because of the way that it's\u00a0now consumed over IP.\u00a0And I think much of the marketer\u00a0misunderstanding was because of\u00a0just\u00a0the noise in the space.\u00a0And\u00a0I think there\u00a0was somewhat\u00a0of a self-serving\u00a0rhetoric from streaming\u00a0growth that, hey,\u00a0we're\u00a0streaming, right?\u00a0We have streaming\u00a0IP,\u00a0we have streaming content.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So as things were shifting from more\u00a0of a traditional broadcast cable mindset,\u00a0it was self-serving for those partners\u00a0to put that messaging into the ether.\u00a0And\u00a0so\u00a0I think that\u00a0that\u00a0was a bit of a signal to noise ratio\u00a0between marketers trying to understand\u00a0where do I start in TV?\u00a0Is it traditional?\u00a0Is it streaming?\u00a0What's\u00a0the right access point for me?\u00a0And\u00a0so\u00a0this is just more a misnomer to me.\u00a0It's\u00a0not TV is dying.\u00a0It's\u00a0just simply\u00a0it's\u00a0rapidly changing\u00a0in terms of choice and consumption\u00a0because of the way that\u00a0it's\u00a0proliferated\u00a0channel adoption,\u00a0app adoption, the growth of internet\u00a0consume television or streaming\u00a0or connected TV verbiage, depending upon\u00a0how you choose to define it.\u00a0So\u00a0that's\u00a0the best way I would answer it.\u00a0I think\u00a0it's\u00a0not so much that marketers\u00a0really thought it was necessarily dying,\u00a0but it was how to\u00a0actually enter\u00a0into this new normal as conversion TV.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">It's funny, when I was thinking about this earlier,\u00a0you know, the typical narrative\u00a0or the analogy that people would often\u00a0make is of like the horror character\u00a0who you would always think was dead,\u00a0but they would come back\u00a0and they'd keep coming back,\u00a0you know, like a,\u00a0like a Freddy Krueger or something.\u00a0But actually,\u00a0I\u00a0think the more correct one is\u2026\u00a0as a child of the 90s,\u00a0I\u00a0don't\u00a0know if\u00a0you'll\u00a0remember this,\u00a0but do you remember the old Dolph\u00a0Lundgren movie Universal Soldier,\u00a0him\u00a0and Van Damme, right.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mike:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Jean\u00a0Claude Van Damme?\u00a0Yup.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">That's\u00a0right.\u00a0And they come back,\u00a0you know, having quote\u00a0unquote died,\u00a0I think in Vietnam or something.\u00a0And they get some super soldier\u00a0serum\u00a0and they come back stronger\u00a0and better than ever.\u00a0So\u00a0I think it may actually\u2026.\u00a0leaving\u00a0aside the homicidal side of things.\u00a0I think\u00a0there's\u00a0some kind of an\u00a0analogy there.\u00a0But you talked about the\u00a0fragmentation\u00a0and you talked about the shifts\u00a0in particular around\u00a0streaming\u00a0that have driven some of this narrative.\u00a0How have these changing viewing\u00a0habits and broader\u00a0cultural shifts change the way the brands\u00a0need to think about TV planning today?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mike:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Yeah.\u00a0And\u00a0so\u00a0without a doubt,\u00a0TV has become more democratized\u00a0in the sense of how do I enter the pricing\u00a0to enter,\u00a0the more digital way to enter?\u00a0It's\u00a0a new normal in today's ecosystem,\u00a0and so they can treat\u00a0it more like digital\u00a0or an AdWords experience or a social\u00a0like experience, and platforms\u00a0are making it easier for them to get on.\u00a0And I know\u00a0we're going to break this down\u00a0in a little bit,\u00a0but what marketers\u00a0really have to be mindful of\u00a0is that because it is so fragmented\u00a0in the landscape,\u00a0because we have this emergence of\u00a0FAST (free ad supported streaming TV),\u00a0you have a lot of these apps\u00a0that are offering\u00a0AVOD\u00a0or advertising video on demand tiers.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0that's\u00a0a light\u00a0ad load in exchange for content\u00a0or the quid pro quo exchange in a way\u00a0where\u00a0we're\u00a0going to watch content.\u00a0There's exchange for advertising\u00a0and monetization.\u00a0It's\u00a0not just a\u00a0single point of entry anymore\u00a0because our distraction is so rapid.\u00a0I think\u00a0there's\u00a0a lot of stats\u00a0out there from Roku and others around, the average household\u00a0takes anywhere from 5 to 8 plus minutes\u00a0to even decide what to consume,\u00a0and so\u00a0you're\u00a0fighting for that household\u00a0and user viewing attention.\u00a0Because we have so much availability\u00a0now at our fingertips.\u00a0It's\u00a0not just\u00a0I have to watch traditional live\u00a0television and be there in that broadcast\u00a0or cable moment, but the ability\u00a0to watch content in a\u00a0rolodex\u00a0on demand, in real time,\u00a0or on your primary or secondary devices.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">It's challenging for a marketer\u00a0because you have to be in multiple places\u00a0at once to capture that attention,\u00a0and I think that's really where,\u00a0to me, a lot of that cultural shift\u00a0is happening\u00a0in the psyche of just deciding,\u00a0am I going to watch the\u00a0Knicks sweep the Cavs last night\u00a0live on YouTube TV?\u00a0Go\u00a0Knicks\u00a0by the way,\u00a0I\u2019m\u00a0a New Yorker at heart, you know, or\u00a0am I just in the mood to,\u00a0you know, go on Netflix and watch\u00a0Peaky Blinders that I want to go back to\u00a0and watch the early seasons.\u00a0That's\u00a0the challenge that marketers\u00a0have to\u00a0deal with for attention.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0I'm\u00a0going to\u00a0I'm\u00a0going to play\u00a0this section back to my wife\u00a0to share with her\u00a0that\u00a0I'm\u00a0not the one\u00a0who's\u00a0weird in taking\u00a0so long to decide what to watch, only\u00a0to end up watching the basketball game.\u00a0So now\u00a0Tatari\u00a0talks\u00a0a lot about convergent TV.\u00a0How would you define that in simple terms\u00a0for marketers who may still think\u00a0in separate buckets like linear\u00a0or CTV streaming and digital video?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mike:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Yeah, I love this question\u00a0because I think\u00a0we've\u00a0done ourselves\u00a0a little bit of a disservice\u00a0as an industry where we want to pin them\u00a0against each other, we want to make it\u00a0linear versus streaming.\u00a0And you as an agency at DAC,\u00a0I get while there's practicality\u00a0around having to talk about it in that way\u00a0for kind of planning\u00a0and investment purposes.\u00a0But in the end,\u00a0it's\u00a0television.\u00a0And I think that is the easiest way\u00a0to think about what is\u00a0Convergent\u00a0TV in our mind, it's\u00a0not just a media label\u00a0Nasser, it's\u00a0this continuous orchestration between\u00a0how do I best reach a performant household\u00a0or a user in real time?\u00a0And\u00a0that's\u00a0what\u00a0Convergent TV is to us.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">It's\u00a0about fluidity on the glass,\u00a0and that could be the 65\u00a0inch in your living room,\u00a0or that could be your secondary primary\u00a0of your mobile device,\u00a0either on a vertical or landscape basis.\u00a0So\u00a0that's\u00a0how we think\u00a0of\u00a0Convergent TV,\u00a0it's\u00a0television, its sights\u00a0sound in motion,\u00a0it's\u00a0singular.\u00a0We\u00a0don't\u00a0try to think of it as linear\u00a0versus streaming.\u00a0I think we\u00a0have to\u00a0get away from that\u00a0a little bit.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0in order to\u00a0get away from that,\u00a0that requires education\u00a0and some cultural shifts.\u00a0From\u00a0marketers\u00a0perspective,\u00a0you guys\u00a0talk to a lot of marketers,\u00a0a lot of agencies.\u00a0Do you think that marketers are moving\u00a0quickly enough towards convergent TVs,\u00a0or do too many people still think\u00a0about buying TV in the traditional way?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mike:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0I do think that it depends on the size\u00a0and scope of the brand.\u00a0Of course,\u00a0some that are larger\u00a0who are still\u00a0operating\u00a0on the traditional upfront\u00a0endeavor mindset,\u00a0where you are getting locked\u00a0into content\u00a0and good pricing up front.\u00a0That is still very much a thing today. We are going through the upfronts\u00a0as we speak, and\u00a0it's\u00a0still a thing\u00a0and\u00a0it's\u00a0still alive and well,\u00a0but\u00a0it's\u00a0changing rapidly.\u00a0But where\u00a0I think the marketers\u00a0overcorrected, to answer this more specifically is\u00a0they\u00a0somewhat overcorrected\u00a0to streaming.\u00a0And let me explain what I mean by that.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">When we went through this rating\u00a0and consumer shift from the traditional\u00a0to the digital mindset,\u00a0many of these brands were already buying\u00a0on DSPs or demand side platforms today\u00a0because they made it easy.\u00a0You had a seat,\u00a0you could buy in an omnichannel way,\u00a0and for the\u00a0DSPs\u00a0you wanted to open up\u00a0the connected ecosystem, all they had to do was simply add a device\u00a0type to your campaign and add private\u00a0marketplace deals or open\u00a0exchange deals\u00a0through supply sources to get onto TV.\u00a0And for many marketers,\u00a0they looked at that and said, oh, great.\u00a0I'm\u00a0already in my platform of record\u00a0and now I can add this new growing\u00a0and rapid channel.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">The challenge that we see,\u00a0and if you\u00a0take a look\u00a0at the academic\u00a0of the ecosystem, is that\u00a0you're\u00a0only buying in\u00a0a very small\u00a0pocket\u00a0when\u00a0you're\u00a0only buying through streaming\u00a0and only through a DSP.\u00a0And much of that is because of\u00a0what I alluded to with the upfronts, where\u00a0a lot of\u00a0TV, traditional or even streaming\u00a0is still transacted on a direct basis.\u00a0And so that conversation is happening\u00a0between marketer and brand\u00a0and the network themselves.\u00a0And then in terms of\u00a0the\u00a0what\u00a0I'll\u00a0call the Galton\u00a0Board\u00a0distribution from there, in terms\u00a0of how things are distributing right\u00a0through their subnetworks,\u00a0their\u00a0sub platforms\u00a0that\u00a0they've\u00a0acquired. Tubi and\u00a0Fox, for example, being\u00a0kind of a\u00a0part of that collective ecosystem.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">I think there\u00a0was that overcorrection\u00a0to streaming and programmatic only,\u00a0and they\u00a0aren't\u00a0being mindful\u00a0of how much of that direct and traditional\u00a0side of our ecosystem\u00a0is not being addressed\u00a0in the way\u00a0that\u00a0they're\u00a0planning and buying.\u00a0And that, to me, is where the risk is in\u00a0terms of their opportunistic growth,\u00a0that they\u00a0have to\u00a0start thinking\u00a0about that in that more fluid way.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0on the\u00a0flip side\u00a0of that,\u00a0for brands that are used to buying TV\u00a0in a more traditional way, what is\u00a0the biggest adjustment they need to make\u00a0when moving towards a more data driven\u00a0or outcome-based approach?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mike:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0two things\u00a0I'll\u00a0say to answer this,\u00a0which is one and I think\u00a0it's\u00a0changing,\u00a0but\u00a0maybe not\u00a0rapid\u00a0enough, is\u2026\u00a0most performance brands\u00a0recognize that budgets are now fluid\u00a0and they can be more fungible.\u00a0Day to day\u00a0and week to week versus\u00a0those month\u00a0and\u00a0quarterly and or six plus month book outs.\u00a0And so again, there are\u00a0particular reasons\u00a0you might want to do that\u00a0around a seasonal or a tent pole moment.\u00a0If you know that you want to be\u00a0in the Super Bowl,\u00a0that's\u00a0obviously a growth moment for a brand\u00a0to grow into, not an impulsive decision\u00a0because of the cost.\u00a0You do need to obviously book that out\u00a0and get in front of that\u00a0from a more traditional endeavor mindset.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">But given the way that TV has become\u00a0so performant and digital like,\u00a0I think you\u00a0are seeing\u00a0very positive\u00a0changes in the way that they are planning\u00a0and buying against that.\u00a0But the second side of that\u00a0is this evolution beyond\u00a0the\u00a0GRP of\u00a0reach and frequency\u00a0or the Nielsen\u00a0rating points.\u00a0I think we've definitely widely accepted\u00a0at this point that TV is now in such a way\u00a0that it can be measured on a very dynamic\u00a0outcome mindset, and that could be things\u00a0like incrementally,\u00a0geo-match market testing to prove footfall\u00a0into a brick and mortar location\u00a0so you can feel proof of performance.\u00a0And\u00a0there's\u00a0also been a great evolution\u00a0of third-party partners in the\u00a0MMM or MTA\u00a0space that helped\u00a0validate\u00a0different source of truth measurement.\u00a0But\u00a0that's\u00a0what excites me most\u00a0Nasser,\u00a0is we are very much moving\u00a0beyond the traditional measurement,\u00a0and\u00a0that's\u00a0what's\u00a0making TV\u00a0so alive and well and thriving.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">The earlier question\u00a0you answered because clients and marketers\u00a0can trust and feel it more,\u00a0and there's ways to design experiments\u00a0that you can feel empowered\u00a0in\u00a0the conviction about TV.\u00a0Whereas before you\u00a0maybe were\u00a0a little unsure on delayed reporting\u00a0and understanding\u00a0if and when\u00a0I was going\u00a0to feel the impact of TV.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">I love this focus on the\u00a0measurement,\u00a0because\u00a0the implication\u00a0there is\u00a0that\u00a0TV as a channel\u00a0allows for movement\u00a0beyond the pure play awareness and very,\u00a0very high-level metrics.\u00a0Can you, can you talk about where it fits\u00a0in that kind of journey-based approach?\u00a0Does it fit everywhere or\u00a0is it just an incremental movement\u00a0compared to what it used to be?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mike:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Yeah,\u00a0I think it\u00a0depends\u00a0who\u00a0you're\u00a0talking to.\u00a0But the way that I think about it\u00a0is that at some point,\u00a0search and social are\u00a0probably the\u00a0right places for you to honestly start.\u00a0And I would say that\u00a0as a strategic consultant that if you are\u00a0a VC funded, DTC mid-market or growth\u00a0brand, right,\u00a0there are logical places to start\u00a0and\u00a0that's\u00a0going to be one of them.\u00a0To feel proof of performance, build\u00a0your baseline, build your audience pool.\u00a0But at a certain point,\u00a0I think your funnel\u00a0starts to get starved.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And\u00a0in order for\u00a0you to\u00a0actually fill\u00a0that funnel, you need more of those\u00a0canvasing or higher impact\u00a0sites on emotion channels like TV.\u00a0So\u00a0you can\u00a0actually feel\u00a0that on both what\u00a0we call\u00a0at Tatari\u00a0a\u00a0more\u00a0immediate\u00a0basis, which could be more performant\u00a0or causal spike versus\u00a0more of the delayed drag factor,\u00a0the halo effect of television,\u00a0where it might benefit your search,\u00a0your social,\u00a0your organic,\u00a0your email campaigns.\u00a0And so,\u00a0we\u00a0look at TV\u00a0at both brand and performance,\u00a0I think there\u00a0are alternative\u00a0technologies out there\u00a0that are very much calling it performance\u00a0TV as a singular entity.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And I understand\u00a0kind of the\u00a0verbiage there.\u00a0You can measure it\u00a0like a digital campaign,\u00a0but I think in many ways\u00a0we\u00a0have to\u00a0also recognize\u00a0that connected TV is, again,\u00a0television, right?\u00a0It's not just about the performance\u00a0that it can drive on an immediate basis,\u00a0whether that's a site visit,\u00a0an app download,\u00a0a physical commerce\u00a0transaction, Amazon\u00a0cart lift or physical footfall\u00a0into a\u00a0brick-and-mortar\u00a0location,\u00a0which we know\u00a0does occur\u00a0and is more challenging to measure.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">But\u00a0it's\u00a0so much more than that\u00a0because it is both a transactional channel\u00a0and that brand mail driver channel\u00a0to grow that equity for, for partners.\u00a0And\u00a0so\u00a0I think\u00a0it's\u00a0the entire funnel\u00a0in the way that we view it\u00a0at Tatari.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Are you able to\u00a0kind of illustrate\u00a0that with\u00a0a couple of examples\u00a0of the kinds of impacts\u00a0that\u00a0you've\u00a0been able to see\u00a0and\u00a0affect, for brands\u00a0and\u00a0for clients?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mike:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Yeah, sure.\u00a0Actually, I\u00a0can talk about one\u00a0that's\u00a0recently public with\u00a0Saatva.\u00a0Hopefully\u00a0most are familiar\u00a0with\u00a0Saatva\u00a0in the bed category.\u00a0But\u00a0Saatva\u00a0is both a physical\u00a0and a\u00a0digital,\u00a0\u00a0where\u00a0you're\u00a0able\u00a0to have both digital transactions\u00a0where folks might feel comfortable\u00a0buying a bed online without\u00a0actually going\u00a0to feel it in person.\u00a0Obviously, certain people are different\u00a0in terms of their shopping experiences\u00a0and their research patterns,\u00a0but we were able to do a lot of testing\u00a0with them to show both the digital lift\u00a0\u00a0in what television was providing,\u00a0but also that footfall\u00a0and kind of retail ecosystem\u00a0where there was a lot of that geographic\u00a0or kind of match market testing,\u00a0where you obviously are having holdouts\u00a0in certain markets\u00a0where you're injecting that site,\u00a0sound, and\u00a0motion into others.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And I think that\u00a0we've\u00a0seen that\u00a0consistently,\u00a0not just with retail,\u00a0but again, even from a Super Bowl mindset,\u00a0we had four clients in the Super Bowl\u00a0this year, to go back to that example. Partners like\u00a0Manscaped,\u00a0Life360,\u00a0Rho\u00a0and\u00a0Tecovas.\u00a0And so,\u00a0you know, even in those types of brands,\u00a0they felt it on an immediate spike\u00a0because that's one of the largest\u00a0tune\u00a0in moments of the year,\u00a0where you have a lot of concurrent\u00a0viewership on both the traditional\u00a0and the digital mindset.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">But they were prepared to measure that\u00a0not just by the immediate impact of which\u00a0they were going to feel from that moment,\u00a0but the delayed effect\u00a0of what was going to happen\u00a0because they had to have support on search\u00a0and social and their SEO and everything\u00a0getting ready for that growth moment.\u00a0And\u00a0so\u00a0I think we are in a mindset that, you know,\u00a0now that you can measure it an incremental way, which is understanding, did I\u00a0actually drive\u00a0net new conversions over those that would have otherwise converted or otherwise visited my store?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">I think\u00a0we're\u00a0in this mature\u00a0state of measurement\u00a0now where\u00a0we're\u00a0getting beyond\u00a0just the vanity view through\u00a0or again, going back to the reach\u00a0and frequency metrics of GRPs.\u00a0All of\u00a0those metrics are health\u00a0metrics,\u00a0they are\u00a0a path to an outcome.\u00a0But because we can now actually get down\u00a0to\u00a0a very specific\u00a0household penetration,\u00a0to say\u00a0that we drove this type of causal lift\u00a0or incremental lift\u00a0in\u00a0outcomes\u00a0both physically and digitally.\u00a0Brands are feeling more confidence\u00a0entering TV for the first time.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0on a very practical basis,\u00a0and to round us out with this,\u00a0whether a brand is already investing in TV\u00a0or it's just starting to consider it,\u00a0what's one thing that marketers\u00a0should rethink about how they plan, buy,\u00a0or measure TV today?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mike:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser\u00a0to close this out,\u00a0I'm\u00a0going to go\u00a0back to the orchestration of convergence.\u00a0I think marketers\u00a0have to\u00a0recognize\u00a0that television is alive and well.\u00a0US\u00a0adults, depending upon what stat\u00a0you read, are still spending three\u00a0plus hours per day consuming this content\u00a0on both a traditional\u00a0and a digital mindset.\u00a0And\u00a0so\u00a0if\u00a0you're\u00a0only buying through one\u00a0side of the\u00a0aisle,\u00a0or\u00a0only coming at it again\u00a0from a programmatic only mindset,\u00a0there's\u00a0a huge opportunistic way\u00a0that they could be approaching\u00a0TV with more integrated investment\u00a0and holistic measurement.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And\u00a0so\u00a0I want marketers to be mindful\u00a0of these trends and understanding that we\u00a0are in a rapid state of change as sports,\u00a0digital distribution is rapidly changing.\u00a0And that traditional in many ways,\u00a0is still very an intentional way\u00a0to buy into the market.\u00a0So that would be my wisdom\u00a0that I would lead any marketer\u00a0that's\u00a0either new or existing to TV\u00a0as they evolve.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0that's\u00a0the shift.\u00a0TV\u00a0didn't\u00a0die,\u00a0it just changed the script.\u00a0Audiences are moving across linear,\u00a0streaming,\u00a0connected TV, digital video,\u00a0and on-demand environments.\u00a0But for marketers, that shift\u00a0isn't\u00a0a problem to solve.\u00a0It's\u00a0an opportunity to plan smarter,\u00a0optimize\u00a0faster, and connect\u00a0TV investments more directly to business\u00a0outcomes.\u00a0TV's next act is\u00a0already here.\u00a0The brands that win will be\u00a0the ones that see the whole screen,\u00a0not just one channel at a time,\u00a0and bring sharper questions, smarter\u00a0measurement\u00a0and digital level discipline\u00a0to every part of the TV ecosystem.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mike,\u00a0in the immortal words of Dolph Lundgren\u00a0in the Universal Soldier,\u00a0Are\u00a0we having fun yet?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mike:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Yes\u00a0we are.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Yes\u00a0we are.\u00a0Now make it happen.\u00a0Follow\u00a0Shift\u00a0Happens.\u00a0Leave us a review\u00a0and share this episode with your team.\u00a0If you have any questions for the podcast,\u00a0please email us at\u00a0<\/span><a href=\"mailto:shifthappens@dacgroup.com\"><span data-contrast=\"none\">shifthappens@dacgroup.com<\/span><\/a><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,\u00a0we'd\u00a0love to hear from you.\u00a0Mike, thank you so much for joining us.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mike:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">It was an absolute pleasure.\u00a0Cheers.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And\u00a0thank you for joining us on Shift Happens.\u00a0I'm\u00a0Nasser\u00a0Sahlool.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">\u00a0<\/span>","contributing_experts":null,"external_links":{"youtube_link":"https:\/\/youtube.com\/@dacgroup?si=7dBKB6H4ULpQ5hnb","amazon_link":"https:\/\/music.amazon.com\/podcasts\/ec3b53d6-881d-4c41-a030-997f22d95df4\/episodes\/fe63c8ce-4edb-435f-af1e-9314262bc31a\/shift-happens-plot-twist-tv-is-alive-thriving-and-finally-measurable ","apple_link":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/ca\/podcast\/plot-twist-tv-is-alive-thriving-and-finally-measurable\/id1533975355?i=1000771687906 ","spotify_link":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/1v4DqfhwITITWFVpdLBE23"}},"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v23.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TV Is Alive, Thriving, and Finally Measurable | DAC<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"In this episode of Shift Happens, DAC\u2019s Nasser Sahlool and Tatari\u2019s Mike Fogarty explore convergent TV, smarter measurement, and TV\u2019s role as a measurable growth channel.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dacgroup.com\/en-ca\/insights\/podcasts\/tv-didnt-die-convergent-tv-marketing-growth\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" 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