{"id":158237,"date":"2026-02-16T10:55:33","date_gmt":"2026-02-16T15:55:33","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.dacgroup.com\/?post_type=podcasts&#038;p=158237"},"modified":"2026-02-16T10:59:48","modified_gmt":"2026-02-16T15:59:48","slug":"bridging-brand-and-media-performance-up-funnel-growth","status":"publish","type":"podcasts","link":"https:\/\/www.dacgroup.com\/en-ca\/insights\/podcasts\/bridging-brand-and-media-performance-up-funnel-growth\/","title":{"rendered":"Bridging\u00a0Brand and\u00a0Performance\u00a0Media:\u00a0Shifting\u00a0Up-Funnel for\u00a0Measurable,\u00a0Enduring\u00a0Growth"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"featured_media":158231,"menu_order":0,"template":"","meta":{"content-type":""},"podcasts-service-type":[],"podcast-category":[],"class_list":["post-158237","podcasts","type-podcasts","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry"],"acf":{"publish_date":"20260213","expert_source":"dac-team","author":149965,"duration":"18 minutes","title":"Bridging Brand and Performance Media: Shifting Up-Funnel for Measurable, Enduring Growth","hero":{"type":"video","hero_image":null,"hero_video":"https:\/\/youtu.be\/RL7dZ4Aba-g?si=bawajx3sSwCd3RYe"},"podcast_iframe":"Link: <iframe height=\"200px\" width=\"100%\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\" seamless src=\"https:\/\/player.cohostpodcasting.com\/47be1781-33ab-4303-a81f-54daa5e2db0b\/746c45bf-34bc-4b95-9b8e-cf58280a4bad\"><\/iframe>  ","promotional_listen_text":"Listen now on your favorite platform","content":"<span data-contrast=\"auto\">If performance media is so measurable, why invest in\u00a0brand\u00a0at all?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335551550&quot;:0,&quot;335551620&quot;:0,&quot;335559738&quot;:240,&quot;335559739&quot;:240}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n&nbsp;\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">In this episode of\u00a0<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Shift Happens, host\u00a0Nasser Sahlool, SVP of Client Strategy at DAC, is joined by\u00a0Robert Cooney,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0VP of Client Strategy, to examine how an overreliance on last-click performance has pushed media strategies out of balance \u2014 and why many brands are now paying the price.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335551550&quot;:0,&quot;335551620&quot;:0,&quot;335559738&quot;:240,&quot;335559739&quot;:240}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n&nbsp;\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">They unpack how underinvestment in brand erodes long-term growth, why mid-sized brands feel this most acutely, and how modern measurement frameworks like media mix modeling and incrementality testing allow brands to shift up-funnel without sacrificing accountability. The core message: performance works best when brand demand is doing the heavy lifting.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335551550&quot;:0,&quot;335551620&quot;:0,&quot;335559738&quot;:240,&quot;335559739&quot;:240}\">\u00a0<\/span>","tips":{"tips_title":"Key takeaways","tips":[{"tip_image":155037,"tip_title":"Performance-only optimization undermines long-term growth ","tip_content":"Chasing last-click efficiency often rewards the channels with the least incremental impact, quietly increasing acquisition costs and eroding sustainable growth. "},{"tip_image":155037,"tip_title":"Brand investment makes performance media more efficient ","tip_content":"Upper-funnel brand building creates demand that performance channels later capture, driving cheaper search auctions, stronger conversion rates, and higher-quality audiences downstream. "},{"tip_image":155037,"tip_title":"Unified measurement is the bridge between brand and performance ","tip_content":"As Robert outlines in his <a href=\" https:\/\/www.dacgroup.com\/insights\/blog\/paid-media\/bridging-brand-and-performance-media\/\">blog post<\/a>, combining media mix modeling, incrementality testing, and attribution creates a measurement system that triangulates truth \u2014 giving brands the confidence to invest in brand while maintaining performance discipline. "},{"tip_image":155037,"tip_title":"Leading indicators validate up-funnel impact before revenue appears ","tip_content":"Signals like branded search lift, direct traffic, and engagement spikes provide early proof that brand investment is working, long before lifetime value and customer acquisition gains fully materialize. "}]},"transcript":"<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Welcome to Shift Happens.\u00a0I'm\u00a0Nasser Sahlool with DAC. Today we are joined by Robert Cooney who is our VP of Client Strategy and all-around smarty pants when it comes to integrated media. Welcome to the show, Robert.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Thanks for having me on, I really thought this would happen sooner, given everyone tells me I have a face for podcasting.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And a voice for TV.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">That's\u00a0right. And then I heard I this was being video recorded and I was like, oh, okay.\u00a0That's\u00a0why.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Video recorded. I was going to say that this is a generational shift from the last episode where we had Luke Regan on, but the fact that you said video recorded, tells me that\u00a0we're\u00a0still stuck in a similar generation. So welcome to Gen X Robert.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Thank you.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So, Robert,\u00a0we're\u00a0going to talk about the integration and shifts between performance and brand media. So, you know, one of the big conversations right now is if performance media is so measurable, why should I spend anything in brand media, especially given the perceived lack of accountability, or measurement? So, why are we talking about pushing\u00a0more and more\u00a0brands into spending money on brand media?\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">I think this\u00a0is a case of a pendulum swinging too far in one direction, and this has really been a thing\u00a0that's\u00a0played out over not just years, but decades. I can see go back to, the proliferation of digital in the first place and how it progressively trained us that everything is measurable, that you can see a really, hard conversion count, or ROI on every marketing dollar spent.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And then this becomes part of the justification for how you\u00a0go and get\u00a0the budget from the business to continue investing. So, digital tactics have\u00a0kind of trained\u00a0us to set the bar\u00a0really high\u00a0in terms of measurability and of course,\u00a0what's\u00a0been happening recently with a lot of signal loss or deprecation of these forms of measurement, is that\u00a0that's\u00a0no longer true, for one thing.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">We have also seen that the idea of being able to invest in brand building and emotional storytelling for at least some businesses has become a bit of a lost art, even though\u00a0it's\u00a0still\u00a0very important\u00a0and\u00a0very powerful\u00a0when done correctly.\u00a0And actually, some\u00a0of the tactics that show the hardest measurable results or the best ROI when measured in the last click sort of way, they may be tactics that\u00a0actually have\u00a0the lowest incremental in long term value.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And so, we get to this point where businesses are\u00a0kind of misled\u00a0by the numbers into this situation that is borderline if not outright fraudulent, where\u00a0they're\u00a0moving money into the things that have the least true impact.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So, I mean,\u00a0that's\u00a0a big word - fraudulent, right? Especially as it relates to some of these types of investments.<\/span><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">I mean, we certainly saw through, you know, starting with COVID, a lot of this shift away from brand investment and more on that kind of bottom of the funnel, you know, last click, investments.\u00a0So<\/span><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">assuming that\u00a0it's\u00a0all\u00a0above board, what is the impact on long term brand health?\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0I think\u00a0it's\u00a0very true\u00a0that, this shift was\u00a0exacerbated\u00a0by COVID, and\u00a0I think it\u00a0was a bit of a forced short termism.<\/span><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Right. If you have no idea of\u00a0what's\u00a0happening, with the supply chain or\u00a0whether or not\u00a0we're\u00a0going into another lockdown, it makes a lot of sense that you\u00a0don't\u00a0want to make one-year long media commitments. So, there was a bit of a flight out of things like the upfronts and into, investing in digital in an even bigger way, just because you have that flexibility to turn investments up and down at the drop of a hat.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0the problem\u00a0definitely got\u00a0worse. And I think\u00a0we're\u00a0seeing the results of that.\u00a0We're\u00a0starting to see, more mid-sized businesses waking up to the fact that\u00a0they've\u00a0had an erosion of their brand, and that they\u00a0have to\u00a0continue to invest more into these sorts of demand capture channels\u00a0in order to\u00a0keep hitting their business\u00a0objectives.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">But\u00a0it's\u00a0a bit of a race to the bottom. And I think for just, I talked about the pendulum swinging too far in one direction. I think\u00a0it's\u00a0kind of hitting\u00a0the end of that track. And\u00a0we're\u00a0now realizing, okay,\u00a0it's\u00a0got to come back the other way a bit.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0this, this feels like a little bit of a, you know, back to the future kind of situation, right? I\u00a0mean,\u00a0 where\u00a0everything old is new again.\u00a0\u00a0And\u00a0it's\u00a0not just in media.\u00a0It's\u00a0in popular culture. Like celebrities are smoking again for some reason.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">That's\u00a0right. Sabrina Carpenter has a cigarette in her mouth and TV is cool again.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0maybe I'll\u00a0be cool as well. Who knows?<\/span><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Let's\u00a0talk a little bit about this idea that you brought up about storytelling, right? Is it a lost art? Do the people in charge of marketing organizations today know how to do that anymore, in your opinion?\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">I think it\u00a0depends very much on the business, of course. And a lot of the largest businesses have been lost this because\u00a0they've\u00a0continued to invest in brand media in a big way, and\u00a0they've\u00a0understood that\u00a0really well\u00a0over the years.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And they\u00a0have the ability to\u00a0invest in the right forms of measurement around it.\u00a0So\u00a0this is not a problem for the Coca-Colas of the world. This is really a problem that seems to most affect, mid-tier brands.\u00a0Let's\u00a0say anyone\u00a0who's\u00a0spending from $5 to $50 million in advertising seems to have the biggest problem with getting the right balance of performance media and brand building media.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Okay, so if you were talking to those brands, what evidence is there to support, investing more in a funnel?\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0there has been some\u00a0really critical\u00a0landmark research conducted on a global scale.\u00a0Probably one\u00a0of the most important and famous texts,\u00a0<\/span><i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">The Long and The Short of It<\/span><\/i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0by Les Binet and Peter Field.\u00a0I think that this\u00a0really advocates for a mix of brand and performance marketing being somewhere around a 60 to 40 ratio for most brands.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">You can shift that in a bit in either direction, depending on the nature of the business. And where they are at in their overall development. But I think we can take a lot away from that basic heuristic and just say, you know, if\u00a0you're\u00a0spending 5% of your money or 0% of your money on brand building,\u00a0that's\u00a0going to be\u00a0way wrong.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And it\u00a0has to\u00a0be something closer to an even mix. And you\u00a0don't\u00a0need to A\/B test a parachute. You\u00a0don't\u00a0have to go and figure this out for yourself. That could be disastrous. So just, take some learning from, what we already know.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0it is interesting that you point to\u00a0<\/span><i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">The Long and The Short of It<\/span><\/i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, because\u00a0that's\u00a0the text of the industry and\u00a0it's\u00a0been around for so long. Surely\u00a0there's\u00a0something that is more current and more contemporary than that. Any data that or evidence that you can point to that is more recent?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">I think\u00a0that,\u00a0we're\u00a0continuing to see this play out when businesses measure this in the right way.\u00a0So\u00a0any business can test it for themselves by delving into media mix modeling and incrementality testing.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And\u00a0we're\u00a0doing this\u00a0all of\u00a0the time.\u00a0We're\u00a0helping brands bring together these kinds of unified measurement frameworks that help them\u00a0establish\u00a0a better way of looking at the results of brand building media. And this continues to play out exactly the way these texts suggest.\u00a0So\u00a0I\u00a0don't\u00a0think that\u00a0there's\u00a0been a major shift over time in the fundamentals of how this works, or of advertising science. The data is\u00a0pretty much in\u00a0on that.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">But the ways that we can measure it have evolved. And that makes things like media mix modeling more accessible to a wider variety of brands. Used to be something that was very time consuming to do and\u00a0very expensive\u00a0to do. And now you can have AI platforms help with gathering and assembling the data and stitching it together in\u00a0all of\u00a0the right ways and\u00a0actually running\u00a0the models.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">There's\u00a0some great\u00a0open source\u00a0models available to do MMM.\u00a0We've\u00a0got models being provided by Google and by Meta.\u00a0They're\u00a0both\u00a0very strong\u00a0models for\u00a0different reasons. And I think\u00a0it's\u00a0very telling that, the two largest digital advertising platforms in the world have provided a faculty for doing a media mix model. Right? Because even they understand that the quality and value of their traffic\u00a0can't\u00a0be measured through anything other than that.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0you mentioned media mix modeling and earlier you talked about incrementality testing. Could you explain the difference between the two and when you would use one versus the other?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0media mix modeling is\u00a0really most\u00a0effective when\u00a0you're\u00a0trying to get the channel mix right.\u00a0So\u00a0if\u00a0you're\u00a0looking at across\u00a0all of\u00a0your advertising activities and\u00a0you're\u00a0trying to evolve toward a scenario plan of shifting dollars across channels. Incrementality testing is best when you really want to understand an individual channel or tactic and how much\u00a0it's\u00a0contributing.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0there we can do things like holdout testing or match market testing to do a comparison of the specific lift being driven by that one channel. And\u00a0so\u00a0I think ideally these things\u00a0work in very complementary fashions where you might start with a foundational media mix model.\u00a0Maybe it\u00a0raises some questions, like while it looks like\u00a0we're\u00a0doing\u00a0really well\u00a0in radio, but we\u00a0haven't\u00a0spent a lot in radio, we might need to invest more and test it.\u00a0So\u00a0you would design, specific incrementality test on the back of that, to get a better read on that specific channel.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0let's\u00a0build on that. If a brand wants to, invest more into upper funnel, where should they start? What should the first steps be?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">I think the very first thing would be just trying to evolve toward audience centricity and really understanding your target consumer and how they consume media. Because if you understand that, if you know where they're showing up and where they're engaging with media and the types of content that matters to them, then even if you have no measurement strategy, you're still not going to go wildly wrong, right?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">If you are, selling motorcycle insurance and\u00a0you're\u00a0advertising in places where motorcycle enthusiasts are shopping for motorcycles,\u00a0there's\u00a0only so, far, you can go down the wrong path, so that that audience centricity is\u00a0a pretty good\u00a0place to start. And then we want to start looking at the early, I would say leading indicators of success.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0we might not understand right out of the gates how well that translates to long term value in building a brand or customer acquisition or the lifetime value of a customer. We should see signs of life, where you run this media and you get more engagement on your social feeds, more traffic to your website, more branded searches in your in your name.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And this is really, the concept behind burst attribution.\u00a0So\u00a0we do a big push into brand media. Do we see a burst in some of those direct response KPIs that that just give us that first sign that\u00a0it's\u00a0working.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Now, I know\u00a0you've\u00a0applied this thinking in\u00a0a number of\u00a0different use cases. Could you illustrate this with a couple of specific examples and talk about the impact that\u00a0it's\u00a0had on the business, this kind of more balanced approach to performance and, brand building.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">We have, one client that\u00a0we've\u00a0been doing a lot of work with from a strategy and analytics standpoint, a menswear retailer. We first started speaking with them. They were spending,\u00a0the majority of\u00a0their advertising budget\u00a0actually talking\u00a0to existing customers.\u00a0It's\u00a0kind of a\u00a0niche segment. And they found that, if they just got the latest promotion in front of their best customers, those customers would show up and spend more.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So that made a lot of sense on one level. But growth was stagnating. And there is\u00a0kind of a\u00a0bathtub effect with customers where eventually you start to lose some. And if\u00a0there's\u00a0no new ones coming in, then your customer list is just perpetually shrinking.\u00a0So\u00a0we looked at the situation and said, okay, we really need to start moving some of the media back up funnel and focus\u00a0around\u00a0customer acquisition.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">We want to get the types of customers who have the highest lifetime value.\u00a0So\u00a0segmentation and targeting\u00a0is\u00a0critical and just the media tactics are going to be different around that. We want to pursue tactics that are good at making a customer introduction and driving brand discovery, rather than channels like, email and retargeting ads that are just going to go after those existing customers.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0we put together, this measurement model and we saw, some things that were surprising to the client initially. One comment that was made was, \u201chey, can we take a look at our attribution setup?\u201d Because\u00a0all of\u00a0a\u00a0sudden\u00a0we're\u00a0getting a bunch of traffic showing up as direct and\u00a0maybe\u00a0we're\u00a0missing a tag somewhere.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And it was like, no,\u00a0you're\u00a0not missing a tag.\u00a0That's\u00a0brand marketing working.\u00a0It's\u00a0now seeing you on TV and\u00a0they're\u00a0showing up to your website.\u00a0So\u00a0it's\u00a0doing finally exactly what\u00a0it's\u00a0supposed to do.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">I'm\u00a0hung up on that analogy you used of a bathtub and all your customers in it, and then an image came into my head\u2026<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Yeah,\u00a0yeah, all the customers in a bathtub, but\u00a0they're\u00a0wearing great suits and\u00a0really nice\u00a0shoes.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">It's,\u00a0it's\u00a0still disturbing.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Yeah,\u00a0it's\u00a0both awkward and classy.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">That could be both of our taglines.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Yeah,\u00a0we're\u00a0in the business of dichotomy.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">There you go. Awkward but classy. So how can teams\u00a0optimize\u00a0upper funnel media quickly? Like what? What are the practical steps that they can take?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">I think, kind of advice number zero is accepting the heuristic, right.\u00a0\u00a0It's\u00a0just understanding\u2026\u00a0You've\u00a0got to get your balance towards something that makes sense. And\u00a0there's\u00a0going to be a lot of obstacles in your way.\u00a0You're\u00a0going to have to fight for it. But\u00a0let's\u00a0start there.\u00a0Let's\u00a0recognize what a good balance is supposed to be and try and quickly move toward that. And the next thing is to begin looking at those leading indicators.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So, where do we see signs of life? Whether\u00a0it's\u00a0traffic searches,\u00a0all of\u00a0the things that are going to move fast, and you eventually want to start building that into a more robust framework where\u00a0you've\u00a0got a handle on customer acquisition and lifetime value. And we can hopefully statistically\u00a0validate\u00a0the connection between those leading indicators and value, right?\u00a0So\u00a0we can prove to the business that delivering more traffic to the website from the right audiences eventually leads to a high value customer.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">It might take us two years to prove\u00a0that,\u00a0which is why you start with the fast-moving data, the long-term goal, put the fast moving and the slow-moving data together\u2026\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Explains the fast moving\u2026Give an example of that if you can.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So those would be the KPIs like branded searches and website traffic, the types of things that you can get on a daily if not hourly basis. Versus things like a lifetime customer value. You would really need to take years to measure that in full.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Though you can begin to measure,\u00a0sort of the\u00a0three month\u00a0value, the\u00a0six month\u00a0value, the\u00a0nine month\u00a0value, and track those customers as a cohort.\u00a0So\u00a0there's always, more short-term way to measure, the predictors of long-term success. And as time goes on, you should see hopefully, that your ultimate result comes in line with your prediction.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0this all sounds reasonable and logical. Why aren't more people doing this?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mainly because\u00a0it's\u00a0hard,\u00a0it's\u00a0hard to set up\u00a0all of\u00a0these measurement models.\u00a0It's\u00a0a journey.\u00a0It's\u00a0not something you can stand up overnight and just take\u00a0a new approach.\u00a0So\u00a0you\u00a0have to\u00a0build a lot of the foundations in place to understand your customer acquisition cost, your customer lifetime value.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">You\u00a0have to\u00a0convince the business that\u00a0it's\u00a0worth doing. So if you, are a marketing lead and you're going to your CFO for money and you really kind of bucking the trend to say, I'm going to invest in something that's harder to measure than what you're used to or the way we typically get funds approved.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So, again, it is\u00a0kind of going\u00a0back in time.\u00a0It's\u00a0kind of breaking\u00a0the model.\u00a0We've\u00a0grown accustomed to, and it really requires a lot of support around the modeling of why this should work. And hopefully the brand marketers and the agency working together and, close collaboration to build and\u00a0validate\u00a0that story.\u00a0So ,you\u00a0could say we\u00a0can't\u00a0prove exactly out of the gate how this is going to work, but\u00a0we're\u00a0going to have\u00a0a number of\u00a0checkpoints along the way. And\u00a0let's\u00a0keep coming back and talking about this at each of these milestones and see that this is playing out the way we hope it does.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Branded search is a hell of a drug, right.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">It sure is.\u00a0Yeah. And if you believe some models or if you believe last click attribution,\u00a0it\u2019ll\u00a0still tell you to put all your money there.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Of course, why wouldn't you?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Where does it come from, right? I, I heard someone say once, branded search is a lack of attribution, and\u00a0that's\u00a0probably one\u00a0of the most astute statements I have come across.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">That's\u00a0wonderful. So, Robert, I know\u00a0you're\u00a0a bit of a dog with a bone when it comes to this subject, and in fact, you can fill\u00a0almost an\u00a0entire book on this subject. And I can say that with\u00a0certainty, because\u00a0you've\u00a0almost written one. So, anybody\u00a0who's\u00a0listening, go to the DAC group.com website and check out the article that, Robert has written there, about Bridging Brand and Performance Media for a fuller view of this conversation and a lot more detail and specific examples.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u00a0here's\u00a0the shift. Brand and performance\u00a0aren't\u00a0competing priorities.\u00a0They're\u00a0interdependent. Performance only works at its best when brand demand is doing the heavy lifting, and brand only scales when\u00a0it's\u00a0measured with rigor. The brands that win are the ones building systems\u00a0where\u00a0brand fuels performance. Today, while creating the confidence to invest for long term growth. Now. Make it happen.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Follow Shift Happens. Leave us a review and share this episode with your team. If you have any questions for the podcast, email us at\u00a0<\/span><a href=\"mailto:shifthappens@dacgroup.com\"><span data-contrast=\"none\">shifthappens@dacgroup.com<\/span><\/a><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.\u00a0We'd\u00a0love to hear from you. Thank you for joining us today, Robert.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Robert:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">Thank you, Nasser.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Nasser:<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>\r\n\r\n<span data-contrast=\"auto\">And thank you for listening and watching at Shift Happens.\u00a0I'm\u00a0Nasser Sahlool.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:276}\">\u00a0<\/span>","contributing_experts":[{"expert_source":"dac-team","expert":149965},{"expert_source":"dac-team","expert":87609}],"external_links":{"youtube_link":"https:\/\/youtu.be\/RL7dZ4Aba-g?si=bawajx3sSwCd3RYe","amazon_link":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/ca\/podcast\/inside-the-funnel\/id1533975355","apple_link":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/ca\/podcast\/inside-the-funnel\/id1533975355","spotify_link":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/episode\/6uXmy0pxe0VRpUJoE9XXYK?si=9548f5cb8f554dc1 "}},"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v23.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Bridging\u00a0Brand and\u00a0Performance\u00a0Media:\u00a0Shifting\u00a0Up-Funnel for\u00a0Measurable,\u00a0Enduring\u00a0Growth | DAC<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Why performance media alone isn\u2019t enough. 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